#1 Karen Thom & Lee Dancy @ Tribal Works - Journey & Life Post Pause & Karen Thom @ The Foundation Studio

In my first episode, I’m speaking to the wonderful Lee Dancy, owner of Tribal Works. With a wealth of experience in setting up, running and selling businesses, Lee definitely has been there, done that, and is proudly wearing the t-shirt.  Lee understands firsthand the challenges of transforming a passion into a profitable enterprise, whilst balancing the demands of family, home life, and work. From navigating midlife mind fog to envisioning an empire from the kitchen table, Lee’s journey mirrors the challenges many women face in business.
 
In 1999, whilst running a marketing consultancy and unable to find care for her Dalmatian puppy, she launched Barking Mad, a business dedicated to organising holidays for dogs. What started out as an innovative solution quickly grew into a nationwide franchise with 76 franchisees across the UK. Lee sold the business in 2016, and after stepping away in 2019, I returned to her hospitality roots launching Sunnyside Retreats.
 
Lee briefly considered living life at a slower pace, but her passion for business reignited as her holiday cottage venture flourished. Today she dedicates her time to helping other women turn their ideas, hobbies, and dreams into successful, money-making business ventures.  Lee truly believes every woman should establish her own financial independence. Female business mentoring and proudly ‘Post Pause’ @tribalworks
 
Given Lee’s background she was really keen to share her experience of the Menopause journey and there’s some great tips and advice that comes out of our chat.
 
Enjoy!

Lee Dancy : -

Tribal works https://tribal-works.co.uk/ 
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tribal_works/

If you have any questions after listening to today's episode please let us know, we'll be answering them throughout the series.

Everything we talk about in the episodes is not specific advice to everyone before changing your lifestyle please always contact your practitioner 

Any questions please contact me Karen Thom @ WWW.thefoundationstudio.co.uk

Transcript

Unknown: 0:01

Karen, clueless in the pause, whether you're Perry meno or post, I'm here every week to talk all things menopause, the things we're all thinking but not talking about. Trust me, someone is feeling exactly how you are. I'm Karen. Thom a women's life coach, and at 45 feeling perimenopausal. Each week, I'll be joined by an expert in their field, and we'll delve into pressing topics, like, Why do I hit my husband three days every month? Why do I feel my internal thermometer has bobbed off to the Caribbean? Why do I need strength training in my life? And why do my periods flood, ruining my best, best genes? We'll dive into the symptoms, why we experience them, and provide friendly tips to help get in touch, let us know how you're feeling, and send us your questions. We'll be answering them throughout the series. Hey everybody, I'm Karen Thom. I'm really excited to share this podcast with you. It started out as a journey of learning about menopause and the symptoms I was experiencing but not understanding. It quickly transpired I knew nothing, and started asking friends, relatives who'd been through the menopause and experts in the field for any and all info that they had. It dawned on me that this can be for some an isolating experience, and one a lot of women don't know they're going through until they're right in the thick of it. I'm so happy to kick off this series with Lee dancy, who, as she described, is on the other side, and wanted to share there is light at the end of the tunnel. What comes through during our chat is some really useful insights we can all be thinking about now to help our journey through this next stage of life. So let's get into it and hear from Lee. Oh. Lee, thanks so much for joining us today. Super excited to chat to you about your journey and your story. So I'm really happy to be kicking off this series with this chat. Ah, thanks, Karen, thanks for asking me to come in today. You know it is one of those subjects which is really close to my heart, and I think that it's not talked about enough, so I am very happy to share my own experience. Oh, brilliant. I'm really excited. Do you want to share a little bit about your yourself, your career, everything, where you've what you've done, and where you've been? And, yeah, what's brought you to where you are today? Sure. Yes, of course. So I began my career in hospitality very many moons ago. I realized, sort of, you know, having trained to be a chef, that really wasn't going to be my full day. And so stayed within the hospitality sector and specializing in sales and marketing, which I absolutely loved and worked for just has 40 so a very big group. Then I went to work for my general manager in a much smaller Hotel. That was great fun, because we had much more freedom to be able to do the things we wanted. And then I worked for English legs Hotel. So it was very big, family owned business, with, at the time, five hotels in the Lake District. And from there, I went to live in Cyprus, and spent a year over there, which was brilliant fun. Really, really enjoyed that. Came home and I set up a consultancy business, so I work with independent hoteliers. So I spent time both training members of perhaps a reception team or Front of House team to be able to do the sales and marketing, or I went along and worked with my clients on particular projects where we'd analyze the customer base, understanding where clients were coming from, how are they arriving? And in those days, there was no internet, you know, and I think back now, it seems quite bizarre that we lived in a a world where we couldn't just access people's data really easily and and try and understand how we could reach a much bigger audience. I think in those days we we advertised on teletext. How long ago it was moved house, and it was my first home with a garden. And rather than rushing out to buy new furniture, carpets, curtains, I bought a dalmatian puppy. So brought brought little Bronte home in 1999 and she would come to work with me. And it was brilliant. But two months in, suddenly realized that I was going on holiday to stay with my brother in the States. My whole family were going, what was going to do with this little puppy? And, you know, in a really short period of time, I realized that she was solely reliant on me, and I felt this huge sense of responsibility. And so did loads of research locally, and asked of the dog owners what they did, and they. Know heck, well, we either put them in a kennel, rely on family and friends, or we don't go away hikes. Heck, none of those options are going to work for me. So found a lady locally. She looked after Bronte when I was away, worked really well. And I came back from holiday and people say, Oh, Lee, did you manage to find someone to look after your dog? And I said, yeah, yeah, you know this lady, Ruth, and you know, started matching Ruth with other dog owners and and they're sort of hatched a little idea where I went out and found other people who might be interested in looking after dogs, and ran the business locally in conjunction with my consultancy business, and I think about a year down the road, we began getting inquiries from across the country. As soon as we created a website, and I decided to franchise so I grew the business through the franchise agreement. Had a great team head office who grew with me, and then I sold the business in 2016 at which point we had about 78 franchisees on board, and I sold to a much larger franchising organization. Worked for them for three years. It was a PLC. So that was a great big, huge learning curve for me, and working for somebody again was challenge. I left there thinking I might have an easier pace of life, and converted a little cottage we had into an Airbnb, then renovated our house during COVID, and just happened to fall into doing a little bit of coaching for two local businesses. And that has brought me, I guess, to where I am today, which is mentoring and coaching women in business. Brilliant. That's such an extensive resume, and how exciting like getting to live in Cyprus and exploring the hospitality industry from so many different angles as well. And I'm really happy that you agreed to record an episode with me. Literally, the night before we had spoken, I had been saying to my husband, I hope people don't think this is all going to be really doom and gloom, because they're, you know, some people don't experience anything, and some people will experience lots, but there is life on the other side, like you see women having great times, and then when I spoke to you, and you said, Do you want to speak with somebody who's post menopause? Yes, this is exactly what I was just saying. So really, thank you so much. It would be great if you don't mind to share your journey with us so that it can help lots of other people out there to feel like they're not alone, or there is light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Well, I think that the first thing that I probably would say is that when you are perimenopausal, it's your journey. So you won't necessarily notice your symptoms straight away? Yes, your symptoms will probably be very different to friends and colleagues. They creep up on you, mostly over a prolonged period of time, and whilst you might notice a little shift, you're not particularly conscious that anything is happening, and even though we're talking about it much more now than we ever had before, I think the menopause has been one of the best kept secrets, and by the time I was In it, for me, my experience was one of feeling like I was living in a parallel universe where I could see my life playing out, but I did, but it didn't feel or look at all like me or my life, and that it's a really tricky thing to try and explain, because, as I mentioned, for everybody, they'll have their own experiences, and they won't be like anybody else's. So I think that's really important to say as well, isn't it? That everybody is unique. Everybody will have completely different experiences, and some people will go through a lot of experience and symptoms, and some people potentially don't even notice what's going on. So yep, yeah, everybody, it is definitely, I think what's interesting, and I think this is a key point, actually, is when you have been through the menopause. It's really quite easy to identify other women who are going through that journey, and it's quite difficult to address the subject if they're not aware that. They are going through it. So it's great with friends, you can be really open, but I think you from the outside, particularly for people you know well, family, friends, but also work colleagues, you can begin to see a change in personality. And I think that it manifests itself in lots of different ways. And then as an employer, I remember being in a situation one day where I come into work, we were really super busy. We're in the middle of training, and one of the ladies who worked for me came into my office looking really harassed, and said, I've got a million on one jobs to do today. I think I can only do two of them. And I understood that, because sometimes I felt the same, and I wonder, on reflection, how you would cope with that in a workplace where perhaps you didn't feel supported, maybe you didn't have a female boss who was perhaps a little bit more understanding of your situation, and certainly whether you might actually vocalize What you going through without feeling the emotion of, again, a cross section of you know, shame, incompetence, a lack of you know, you feel your abilities being drawn into question. You know, even if you sort of know you're going through the menopause, you don't necessarily put all the jigsaw pieces together and realize your symptoms, creating this brain fog, or, yeah, suffering from absolutely and I think just going back to a point that you made earlier, I mean, that's so critical that actually, sometimes your partner and your family will notice the changes in you before you Notice it yourself. And I had this recently, actually, with my husband. I'd realized that a few after ovulation, every month, I was my behavior changed, and I was quite quick to be very angry and very annoyed. And I was only, like, a few months later, and I could feel there was a bit of a friction. And I we I sat down. I was like, What's going on to me? It's like, well, actually, you're being like this. And I was like, Oh, I haven't really arsey with me, so I'm being a bit arsey with you. Yeah, need to change. And I really hadn't. And that was such a light bulb moment for me. And I had to say to him, Look anything else and like we need to be honest and open and talk about these things. Because I didn't realize that this I my behavior had changed in this way, and that was actually really scary for me, yes, and I think, I think that's a really good point and a point to note that it isn't just your husband who notices it, because as the symptoms, you know, if you're somebody whose symptoms are particularly apparent, then you can't hide it, and so you're relying on, you know, friends, colleagues, people you meet, not to take offense by your behavior. And sometimes you'll say things. It's a bit like being a teenager. You're saying these things. You're, you know, you can hear yourself saying it. You can't. You're trying not to, but you can't help yourself, you try to pull it back in, even as it's coming out, like no, and in that moment, you think you are absolutely right and that everybody else is wrong and that, how could they possibly not see that? But then you reflect afterwards, and you go, Oh my gosh. I can't believe I did that. I think I had the same with, say, with, like, my husband once we were having a disagreement, let's say. And what jumped at me was I, it's almost like I could see myself in real time from outside my body, yeah, and I see my face, even though I wasn't standing near a mirror, but I could also see salmon space. And I was like, oh my god, what am I doing? I stopped, and I just said, I'm so sorry. I was like, This is not me. Yes, it's coming from Yeah, yeah, I know. And it's really difficult. And I think as as time progresses, that emotion is very difficult to control, because, of course, you can't control it. So even though you're aware of it, being aware is only part of the picture, and you or we all really need the people. Close to us to understand and appreciate that this is a phase we're going through, and no matter how many times they point it out to us, we're not going to be able to stop Yeah, and I think that's really but we found that communication is really the key in this, in like, talking about, yeah, talking about, you know, me, to talk about my feelings, or, let's say, like Simon sort of talking about my reactions, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And in an accepting way that it's not judgmental. There's nothing with it. It's just that this is what's going on at the minute, and it's that, it's that's the scary point for me was the not realizing our or being able to acknowledge and it was like this unspoken cycle that just seemed to go on for a few months. Yeah, thank God we caught we sort of we talked about it, and now we can openly communicate and talk about what's going on, because otherwise you can understand. You can see where, you know, relationships can break down and like things like this, when you're not talking about what's going on, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And I think talking about it and acknowledging it, that it's really important and it you know that that's really healthy to be able to go, Well, you know, sorry about that. Was just having a moment and and that's great if your partner is open to understanding, not blaming, supporting. And I think the earlier you can bring them into your world, the better, because it does, as you said, you know, it was this sort of vicious circle, and before you realize, you know, blaming each other, and then it's all escalating. Yeah, once it gets to that point, it's quite difficult to bring it all the way back down again. Yes, and for some women, they will have people around them who are dismissive of the menopause that they you know, they'll refer to it in a derogatory way, and using the same terms as they do with PMT, and that that is a real, you know, that closes then everything down because you feel like you're using it as an excuse, and it absolutely isn't an excuse. These are all the real symptoms and the things you're you're going through? Yeah, I remember going to speak to somebody now, my husband was like, Oh, my godly, you know, I think you're going bad. And at the time I was, I was selling the business. I had to do due diligence. I was having to do it in the evening because my team didn't know I was selling. I was selling to a PLC. So it was, you know, they needed a lot of information over a prolonged period of time. You know, my daughter was was young, and I just had so much going on. We were renovating the house. It was just I felt absolutely overwhelmed. And I went to see this lady, and I was like, oh my god, I think I'm going mad. And she said, You You're not. You're definitely not going mad, definitely not. You know, you just stop for a moment and think about all the things that are going on in your life. And as women, we just take it all on. And if you're already running a busy business, or you're in a busy job, you've got children, your lifestyle is hectic. When it comes to the menopause, we go, we just haven't got time for this Bucha because, well, like, people really push it back and think, Oh, well, that's when I'm older. Like, this isn't for me. Now I'm in my late 30s. I'm in my early it's like, this isn't for me. And I had this actually a few weeks ago, talking to a friend who's a few years younger than me, and she was saying, but I still have a regular period. And I'm like, My period is clockwork, regular, yeah, but I'm still experiencing all of these other symptoms that I this is where I'm at, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, we put it down to lack of sleep, being overly busy, being stressed. Well, of course, all of those things contribute to the way in which we feel. But you know, the change is called the change for a very good reason, and unfortunately, you are changing, and in lots of other countries, you don't have the outward stresses that modern working women today have, and we're expecting our bodies to be able to absorb all of that. Eight. External going on in our lives, and we don't nurture and cherish ourselves. You know, if you know, we're lucky if we go off and have a relaxing bath for half an hour once a week, we think we've done well, don't we, so we have to learn to be really kind to ourselves and to listen to our bodies. Yeah, and when you when you're saying that actually, it's just making me realize absolutely we do not prioritize, and we are so easy to say yes to everything when we we don't want to, and we feel like we have to, and we're always at the back of the queue somehow in terms of our time and priority, really, yeah, and I think we are naturally. We are nurturers. We want to nurture we want to look after everybody. You know, I was speaking to one of my clients earlier today, and she rang up to discuss an issue she's having in a business, and before we could even get on to that, I could identify that she was just overwhelmed. You know, it's been half term, so she's balancing having a little boy home from school. She wants to do all these amazing things with her child so that, you know he's got fantastic memories, and she's spending time with him. She doesn't want to feel that as a working mum. She's not giving a son everything he needs. She's she's put her going to the gym on the back burner all week. She's put eating healthily on the back burner all week, because rather than planning the meals and doing what she would normally do, she's just completely consumed herself with dedicating her time to her child. And so our conversation started today where I said, Look, I think you just need to give yourself a bit of a break, because, you know, we work really hard before a holiday, then we have the holiday, which isn't a holiday. And any working mum will tell you that when you go away, it's not really a holiday, and then you get back and you're catching up on all the things that you couldn't do because you've been on holiday. So she's completely overwhelmed with all of the guilt that she hasn't dedicated enough time to her work or to herself keeping fit and healthy. And it was like, right? Just, have you got a cleaner? Yes, yes, I've got a cleaner, right? Why don't you just double the hours of the lady who comes to clean for you, and then she can change your son's bed that you've been desperate to do ever since he was born. You want to do it every week because you feel it's your job. It's not your job. He doesn't care who washes his shoes. He doesn't see you. Washing them, drying them, ironing them, putting them back on the bed. It makes no difference somebody else can do that. Get somebody to take a little bit of pressure away from you, get your husband to go and do the shopping. You know we do just pile on more and more and more and more rather than allocating other tasks to other people, and we've got these rules in our head. Well, I I'm his mum. I've got to change my little boy's bed. You don't. It's just writing those rules in our head that actually don't really exist, isn't it? And it's like, actually, who says that you are the only person. It's almost like being super hero, super mom. Yeah, delegate. You don't do everything, yeah? Definitely, definitely give yourself a break. Yeah, absolutely so. And as an employer, what did you what? What did you feel when you were managing and working, you touched on earlier somebody who you were working with, who was going through that. What's the best way do you feel like an employee could speak to their employer about about what they're going through? I think it depends on both personalities. Because in my situation, I was, you know, I'd like to think I was a nice, understanding employer, and that enabled my employee to come and talk to me openly and to tell me what she felt capable of doing or not doing. But not all employers are going to be like me, and not all employees are going to be able to feel confident about talking about what essentially manifests itself is an inability to be able to do a job is efficiently as you previously have been able to, and that is the honest truth. So if. You start to roll. You give it 100% it's absolutely brilliant. The menopause hits, and we've acknowledged that it affects different people in different ways. But if you're going to work, having had very little sleep because you've been having hot flushes all night, you've got brain fog because you're overly tired and you can't remember you know your name, let alone anything else. You feel like you're living in a sort of parallel universe. You can't continue operating it the same way as you have, as you previously did, and that makes you feel incompetent, and that incompetence gives you a lack of confidence, and that lack of confidence makes you feel unhappy about yourself and your present situation, and that can cause depression. So there are lots and lots of knock on effects. So it is really, it is really, really difficult to give anybody any advice other than to take time out and to take time away on your own. So leave home, go and stay overnight somewhere on your own, and just give yourself a bit of time to reflect on what you think is happening, and then put a plan together. And if you can't talk to your employer, take somebody with you. Yeah, so together you can go and speak to an employer about it, because if you feel that you've got a lack of confidence, you're going to end up leaving your job, or you're going to end up getting disciplinary, or, perhaps, worst case scenario, losing your job because you're not performing the way you did. Yeah, and I think that's the scary thing, isn't it? It's like when you look at the statistics around this, I think I was reading something that said, like one in 10 women will leave their workplace due to the menopause. And I guess when I first read that menopause is protected under the Disability Act, it really incensed themselves. This is not disability. This is a natural occurring thing that a woman goes through in as going into the next phase of light, but actually, somehow it disables you to be able to perform your role. Yeah, definitely. I'm starting to think about it in that different way. And I guess because generally, I mean, it depends when you start having symptoms at this time, if you say you were starting from mid 40s onwards or perimenopause. Generally, most people are getting to the peak of their career, though, you know, good employment. They're in a good place of whether they're working to in their career. That actually this is just such can be not for everybody, of course, but like, it can be such a crushing thing to to completely debilitating. Yeah, completely I mean, you imagine going into a boardroom, you being one of very few women in that boardroom, and then experiencing a hot flush or just complete brain fog, and it's easy for me to say what you have to do in that moment is tell the people in there what's going on. Yeah. So you need to be able to say, just give me a moment. I'm having a personal potty or whatever term you use. That's what I would say you should do, and that's okay with people you feel comfortable with. But imagine you're in that scenario. You're in a room with a lot of people who, like you, are very, you know, very experienced. Get very senior people, people who are operating at that level are really quick. They're really fast. They want to get in, get out, get it done. Boosh, boosh, we're off. And for you to then go, excuse me, if you can just give me a moment. You know they're going to be like, what? Why? Come on, got all day, and even if they don't vocalize it, that's how you will feel. Yeah. And so the honest truth is, I just don't feel that there is an easy fix, because there are so many different scenarios and different circumstances where you will find yourself in a position that you don't feel, that you can tell people what's going on, and by Not doing so, it makes you feel even worse, because you're thinking, Oh, my God, they must think I'm completely incompetent. And then you start panicking. And when you panic, your heart rate goes up. Heart rate goes up. You start to sweat even more, and you get brain fog. You can't remember where you are, you know. And it the whole thing just starts building. Building until it spirals out of control. Now, if that is in a top client meeting, where you are going there and you're bidding for millions of pounds worth of business, how do you recover from feeling like you messed it up? Yeah, well, I think like you say you somehow that is so it's so difficult you have to, you have to start calling that out. I mean, I have, and I found understanding. And I found that people often, then especially women, of course, people then often open up. And actually, recently, this happened in a meeting, and the client was a guy. And I thought, I was like, sorry. He was like, brain fog, and he was laughing. They said, he said, oh God. He said, It's so bad. Is it in and sort of started saying, like, how his wife was going through, yeah, through some things. And I was like, you think it's difficult, and you think it's only you, but even, you know, I don't mean even, but the guys in a room, the guys in a meeting, generally, will potentially have a wife, a partner, a sister or whatever, and will have experienced people who who are going through that. So I think it's as much as you can feel comfortable. I think all I can say from my own personal experiences, I have found understanding when I've shared that, when I've been going through it because you're right, it makes you feel stupid, and you think, Dear God, these people are going to think that I'm an absolute tool. Yeah? And even when it's people who know you very well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I would say, as an employer, I guess you're looking at it from the other side of the coin, because I had a team of 1340 people who work with me, and those members of staff were all of them were incredibly valuable, and if one person is off, you know, the rest of the team have to draft in and support them and da, da, da. So if they've had an illness or they've had a bereavement, we sort of have an idea of when that person might come back. But when it's menopausal, the very difficult thing for an employer is, how long is it going to last? How is it going to manifest itself? How long is the productivity of this person going to be in question? And they are the commercial that's the commercial side of the workplace dilemma about the menopause, because if you're going through that process, and for you, it's really challenging and really difficult, you might feel like that for 678, 10 years. So we're asking employers to be understanding. How understanding can they be? Yeah, how understanding can we expect them to be. How understanding is the relationship between the employer and the employee, because that relationship becomes strained, because no matter how understanding you are, you're thinking about the commercial impact it's having on your business, yeah, and I think that's somehow I completely understand what you where you're coming from in that. And I think there has to be, surely, a common ground, because when you look at the number of women who either potentially are not leaving work but having to take days because of symptoms and things. Yeah, it costs everybody a lot of money. But the impact of women leaving the workplace and then after that, after their time coming back, and then you're unable to find a job, there is also a huge cost to the economy. Yeah, definitely. Because after that time, like they will, they will come back, people, back to work, and will, they will, but, but if there's a huge house of confidence, yes, you've left your job, let's say you work. You know most industries, they feel quite small. You sort of know everybody within your particular industry, they're quite incestuous, aren't they? People move from one company to another. So you feel like you've, you know you've lost a job because you felt, you know, under confident you've left, perhaps because your boss hasn't been understanding. But that comes with an element of, I don't want to use the word shame, because I don't think that's quite the right word, but it's very personal. So you leave your job because you don't feel that you can do it any longer for whatever reason, whilst going through. Through the menopause, how do you then go back to that industry, and you might be working and coming into contact with all those people you worked with previously, and if you've lost your confidence, getting back on the horse is really quite tricky, yeah, and I think in that way, it's really about that perspective. It's being able to help women shift that perspective of this is a process that you it's a natural experience that you have gone through. Generally, people break it down and say, like that, there is perimenopause, menopause, postopers. And do you think that for you, there were three very distinct stages. I would say for me, there were not three very distinctive parts to the journey, because I think by the time I recognized I was really in the middle of the menopause. I couldn't really give a start date for the beginning of the Perry menopause, and I I couldn't see where one had started, and then the unfinished and the other one had taken over. And I think, I think that's probably quite normal. It's easier now and through the other side of Hooray, to be able to reflect on the journey and realize that by the time you realize you're in the middle of it, and it is really hard, a lot has changed during that period of time. So I think if you are perimenopausal and you can you recognize you are, I think my advice would be, have a plan. Yeah, so if you're going into hospital to have a baby, you've got a plan. Now, in truth, most of the time that plan goes out the window, because you know all sorts of different things can happen, but at least you've got a plan. And wouldn't it be a good idea for women who know this is going to happen in whatever degree, with whatever symptoms it is going to happen? So wouldn't it be a good idea to hatch a plan in your 20s or your 30s to know that this is going to happen to me? How do I feel about going on HRT looking at alternative therapies? Perhaps I need to start earlier. Maybe I need a better self care plan now to support me going through the menopause as I get older. Do I want to be self employed during that time? Or for me personally, am I the sort of person who would benefit from being employed? I don't know. I just think it's perhaps worth having the conversation about the opportunity to plan for it rather than look back with regret. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And you're right. I think, do you know what it is as well? I think it comes back to, you know, you barely have any kind of sex education when you're in school. I mean, for me, anyways, my experience, there was hardly any kind of sex education that really kind of talked about. Obviously, we knew what sex was, and we knew were the I'm from Hull, it has a very high or had a very high teenage birth rate. So sex of sex. But actually, you know when you kind of, when you get past that and you've gone to whatever, if you go to college, university, or you go straight to work, whatever, a lot of women spend most of their lives trying not to get pregnant and assuming they choose, ah, then I'll just get pregnant when I want to get things. We're so unaware of our bodies and the fact that actually, you get over 30 and you're on a ticking time clock. People talk about that, but I don't think women fully understand it. Sometimes I know I never Yeah, and you get to that point, and it's like, actually, after 3536 your fertility drops off a cliff, and it just decreases, decreases, decreases. And I think we're just so unaware of even that phase. And you know, a lot of people want to become mums and have children, and don't know this. So then menopause is so far away that we just don't plan for it. But I love that, and menopause, I've just written down menopause checklist. I mean, I had my daughter when I was 44 I was I was pregnant 43 and had her going through because. Industry who had IVF, and I had thought that I was too old. I think I, you know, met my husband and thought, well, it's not happened up until now. I never will. And anyway, they found it was, I have overactive antibodies, so don't get poorly. So for any other reason, it's absolutely brilliant, other than trying to get pregnant. So I had lcma. So imagine the scenario of i but meet my husband. We decide we want to have a family. I go through all the process of IVF, get pregnant at 43 great pregnancy. Had. LSM 844, and I'm straight back to work, because obviously I'm running a business, so So I didn't give myself very much time for recovery. I didn't work long days. I worked five minutes away from home, so I saw her during the day, and I could feed her, and that was all great. So for everybody else, it worked, but I'm not entirely sure it works for me, because I didn't have any time to recover. Women do, I'm I feel very strongly that we now go into hospital. We give birth. Sometimes parents are, you know, mums are coming home immediately, you know, the next that day or the next day, and there's nobody to look after us, nobody to nurture us, nobody to cook for us. We're just at home having to get on with it. And then, you know, we bring up our children. We put everything into looking after them, caring for them, making sure everybody is okay but ourselves, and so by the time the menopause hits, we're already running on empty, yeah, so we haven't got anything in the tank to be able to support ourselves. So of course we're short tempered, of course we're exhausted. Of course, we've got bread fog because we're not sleeping. You know, our children are not sleeping. Might be getting something like that. You know, because menopause isn't something that affects you when you're in your 50s and your 60s. It can happen at any point in your life. And I do think a conversation about self care for women at any time, whether they have children or not, is absolutely key. Yeah, I really, I absolutely agree. And I think, I think I was listening to something, it's actually a few, good few months ago now. And really, there was a 21 year old who was talking about how, I think she said that realistically, she'd been going through the menopause from 16, but because her doctors hadn't not even computed that this could be something for so young, she suffered so much. So it can really, I mean, how horrific, but it can be such a, I mean, that's just awful. Yeah. I mean, also, if you don't mind me asking, obviously, you were having your baby at 44 and yes, how many years afterwards, then were you then going through the menopause? Well, I guess I was, I was Perry menopausal, you know. So I was aware that, you know, my period that was changing in my own cycle when my daughter was about five or six. So you're dealing with all of the, you know, the normal stuff about, you know, being a working mom, and then you've got something else thrown into the mix. You've got so much going on at that time. You are not considering your yourself. You're not really listening to your body. You just know that you're really tired, you're really exhausted, and you're trying to be all things to all people. You know, I'm growing a business. I'm the main breadwinner. You know, my daughter's going to school. I've got all of that guilt that comes with the balance of business and being a mom and, you know, making sure that you've got that right, and you never get it right, because you the truth is, I believe you can't have it all, and that's all right. I think you've just got to acknowledge you can't have it all, and once you do that, for me, it took a bit of pressure off, because I realized that it was just not possible to travel from one end of the country to the other, to be on call, to be building the business, to be, you know, developing new ideas whilst giving 100% to being a mom. I just couldn't do it. It's not possible. So the only thing that I could do was be. In the room when I was at work and when I got home, there was no discussion about work. It was all about being a mom. That was the only way for me I could make it work, and so I didn't get involved in anything day to day. While I was working, I had to dedicate my time to the business. And then when I got home, I didn't look at my phone. I didn't take emails. If it was an emergency, I could be reached, but I made sure that on the whole unless there was an emergency to deal with, that when I was home, I was mum, and when I was at work, I was the boss, and that was that, yeah, yeah. And, I mean, I guess in that way, somehow you were also incredibly lucky that you were working for yourself in that way. Obviously, the complication with it, yeah, that's tricky for you. But when you also are having to work, and actually you have a boss to answer to, definitely, that could be really hard. I mean, that sounds very intensely. I don't know how you could, how you managed all of that? Well, I think you, you know, you've talked about it in in hindsight, and I think, oh, you know, how did I do it? But honestly, I didn't put myself first and and I think if I had have done things might have been easier in the long run. So I didn't want to go on to HRT, because I've been pumped full of such. You know, I don't know all sorts of weird and wonderful drugs. So you know, through through the IVF process that I didn't want to have more drugs through HRT. Now that was a conscious decision I made, but what I should have done is I should have looked at alternatives. So rather than just saying, right, I don't want HRT. What do I want? I should have had a plan to say I need to go and see a specialist. I need to have my hormones check regularly. I need to make sure I'm taking the right supplements. I need to make sure I'm getting enough sleep. Because had I done all of those things, a life would have been much easier. Yeah, yeah, you're right. And there is it comes back against that point, doesn't it? Of re of prioritizing, and, yeah, just making the space for yourself to do that, because there are lots of different options. You know, HRT is not suitable for everybody, and not everybody wants to take it. And but there are a lot of holistic treatments. I'm going to be speaking to be speaking to somebody in a few weeks who is a Reiki Master and does reflexology. And the results that she's had from a holistic point of view, are incredible. So there are lots of options that doesn't just have to be about taking HRT I mean even basic things, like I spoke to a nutritionist. That's another episode, and like, she was talking about so many different food groups that you can start to implement in your diet. And you know, I think actually it goes back to, I really love what you were saying earlier about this menopause planner checklist. It's like future proofing your body somehow as to right, do I still want to be able to play with my children, play with my grandchildren when I'm on the other side of this, you know, osteoporosis, all of those types of different things about bone health and strength. What do I need to do? Why do I need to do, you know, strength training exercise, you know, have good nutrition and think about what I'm eating now. It's actually really to continue doing the things that you do now and you take for granted once you're, you know, not even post menopause, like, you know, past year, like in your later 60s, 70s and things like that. Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah. I think we, as parents, we probably eat the wrong things, you know, if we're going through, if we're perimenopause or going through the menopause, we're not eating, I suspect the foods we need to be able to support our symptoms, because we're eating the food we're cooking for our kids, which, which they need, you know, loads of carbs and you Know, but are we? Are we thinking about the foods that that we need? And I think we're probably not. So we're deficient in lots of different areas. And also, you know, when you are in the middle of the menopause, and you know your periods are all over the place, you know you go through almost when you go through an awful stage where, you know, you just feel like you're bleeding all the time. It's absolutely hideous, and coping with that at work again is really very challenging. You know, for some women friends I've spoken to, if they're in a meeting for two or three hours, they are terrified about. Standing up after the meeting, they get up and sort of have a look, and have a look at the chair, and they'll let everybody leave the meeting room before they stand up. It comes. It begins to consume you, because you can't get on with your everyday life. But you can't say, I'm not coming to a meeting because I'm having a heavy period, because people go what you know, don't be ridiculous. Yeah, they think you were ridiculous. But, I mean, my periods are still very regular, but they've really changed, and they've become so much heavier. And I can't tell you Well, I can actually, I can tell you exactly, in the last year, I have ruined two pairs of my most favorite jeans because I have flooded. And once it was on a train, and I had to get up and walk to the toilet in the carriage, and I remember just thinking, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. And literally, it was all kind of like underneath, so it wasn't Yeah, yeah, that kind of thing, but like, my god, the terror that I felt until I knew that. So, yeah, I mean, that's, it's just, and that's so difficult that is such, you know, to go through an emotion with the headline terror, yeah, you know that is the real life trauma that women are facing now, you can imagine how you can turn that into a light hearted joke of some description, but it's not in it. And I think we underestimate our emotions and the you know some of the words we've discussed earlier, but to be terrified. You know, once, once you become terrified of something, then that is a feeling that doesn't easily go away. Now, on the other side of it, I can tell you, when you stop having periods and you don't have to worry about any of that malarkey, it is absolutely brilliant. So you do have that to look forward to, and it is wonderful. And you do feel like you're you know you're getting your life back. But how lovely would it be if going through the menopause, you felt in control of your life, that you understood what was happening to you? It's all very well people talking about the menopause, and that's brilliant, and it's a bit like just talking about having a baby, but everybody's different. That journey for everybody is so unique that if you're aware of what's going to happen, and you can plan for it, and you can you know where you are, and you're in touch with your self, then you're not going to run out of control. If you're having if you can't sleep, it catches up with you, and you find yourself in a situation where that sleep deprivation is just nothing, nothing worse than that. And once you've lost your sleep, you can't catch up on it again. We need seven and a quarter hour sleep each and every single night to download all of the information that we've gathered during the day. And women are not doing that, and they're not doing that for a week or a month. We're talking about years worth of poor sleep, poor self confidence, and we, you know, we need to take control of it. We as individual women, need to address it personally and be ahead of the game, yeah, rather than waiting until the position I'm in now to look back and reflect and go, with only, yeah, no, but that's really, I think you know, the more I I'm looking at this now, and I keep writing down these words, and actually, there's going to be certain parts of this, of what you go through, that you cannot control. But actually, if you have knowledge and you have understanding about the whys and the wherefores and what's happening and what could potentially happen, because not everybody will have super extreme reactions or symptoms and things, but I think some of it is that part of that feeling out of control, or feeling like you are having serious mental health issues, when actually you don't know what's going On, so it feels so alien, and just having that knowledge gives you a sense of control. Definitely, yeah, definitely. And with that control comes you know, you regain your self confidence. You you feel empowered because you know what's happening. And rather than your husband saying to you, this is what's happening, you can say to him, Look, this is what's going on. This is how I'm feeling. And know what it is. This is what I'm doing about it. Your husband, all of a sudden, goes, phew, thank goodness of that. She's not going bad. Because it's so funny, because a year ago, I started tracking my cycle and noting so and then looked back after about. Six months and putting down the symptoms that I could feel that I was having when I was having them, and I could start to see a pattern throughout my cycle, when I was having these experience, when I was having these symptoms that I was feeling. But one of my friends, she has a conversation with her her husband and her son, and it's coming at Yeah, third time, and she says to him, right? Mummy is going to be a bit cranky this week. Mummy is going to go to bed every night about 9pm and it's that week. And she said she did it every month, and I love it, but it's like, right? Yeah, like that, PM, like, bright, okay, yep, we know what's going on this week. We know what's you know? We know what's happening. Yeah, no, just, I think that's fed me. I think to really start looking at my cycle and charting it and going, right, okay, yeah, I am pretty good idea. And it's actually coming within the same kind of commute every month, definitely, and, and not only are you in control, but how empowered is her child going to be when he's in a relationship and his wife, or, you know, girlfriend, is going through either PMT or the menopause, he's going to go, right? Hang on. I know what it is. We just need to talk about it every month. So he's already ahead of the game. So, you know, that's preparing him really well, because I think men laugh at PMT, and there's a lot of it. It's used a lot in the workplace in a derogatory way. And really, the menopause is feeling a bit like PMT, but on steroids. And so you're more sensitive. You know, your symptoms are far more obvious and and the last thing you want people to do is identify it as something that can be laughed about, or it or it's a negative, it is a real emotion. You know, we don't want to go through we don't we don't want to have to deal with it, but we just get on with it. And I think if we have the power to know what's happening to ourselves, because we're more in tune and we listen to our bodies more, then we can tell people what's happening in a controlled way, rather than waiting until everything's out of control. People are telling us we've gone mad. No, absolutely in that vein, then I wanted to call this episode light at the end of the tunnel. Can you share a bit of your post experience? Yes, certainly so coming out of the menopause on the other side and reflecting back, I think that there are some regrets, because if only I'd known, if only I had looked after myself better during that period of time, you know my life, and the life of my family, and perhaps even the, you know, the people who work with me could have been a lot easier. I think that coming to the end of the menopause for me allowed me time to reflect on the last sort of 10 years and how how difficult that time had been for me. But there is light at the end of the tunnel, because not having to have your periods, not having PMT, and not having as many hot flushes, you appreciate the joy of not struggling. And I think a lot of people do struggle through the menopause, so it's a it makes you appreciate where you are today. And I, you know, I've got much more energy. I love doing Pilates. I've gone a long walk with my dog every day. I've got a great friendship group. I don't have the mind fog, the brain fog, my confidence didn't take a hammering, but I know for a lot of ladies, it does, and I can assure you, when you come out of it at the other side, you do feel whole again. You I don't feel like I'm the same person as I was 10 years ago, but then I'm not the same person as I was 20 or 30 years ago. So this is a new phase for me. It's a new stage in my life. My hair is in great condition. My nails grow like Billy Leo. I am conscious about the food I eat. I take good supplements. I read a lot about women's health, and I think you know, everything in moderation. So to summarize, I think coming out of the menopause and landing on the other side, I feel much more content and much more in control of. Who I am. Wow, that sounds incredible. And what do you think the change has been that makes you feel that way? I think that I feel so well, because when you're going through the menopause, you're not well, you are unwell, having hot flushes, not being able to sleep, having those points in your life which are terrifying, all of those things collectively make you not feel like you and to be able to come out on the other side and regain a version of yourself which makes you feel joyful and confident and happy is wonderful. And I think if I were to have any wish for women who are coming up to be perimenopausal, it would be to have a plan to know it's going to happen, to prepare for it, to be kind to yourself, to put yourself first, to tell people what you need and not to try and be all things to all people. Because if you don't look after yourself first, you really, truly can't look after other people. Yeah, thank you, Lee, you just, you didn't. I didn't even need to ask. That was going to be my next question. What were next question. What would you what tips, in summary, would you give to people who are about to go through this, but you're so right? I think I really feel like recently, my mantra has been about like the airlines tell you when they're doing their safety demonstration, you have to put your mask on first, otherwise you cannot help. The biggest thing that I'm taking, well, one of the biggest things is loads that I'm taking away from what you're saying is really that you have to get you have to put your mask on first you do. And I think for moms out there with daughters, I'm already talking to my daughter about planning. So don't automatically assume you can have children, but don't worry about not being able to have it in your mind that the longer you leave it, the harder it might be. Don't assume you're going to be able to have three children, because you might not. You might end up with six. You might end up with one. You might end up with no, yeah, it doesn't matter. Having having a loose plan is quite good, but just think about all the eventualities. It's important when you're thinking about a career as a woman. And I think this is something else which is vital, is that you plan a career which allows you to be able to stop have children, spend some time with them, and either go continue to work when your children are very young, flexibly, or an industry that allows you to go to be able to pick it up, go back to work and pick up where you left off. I think you should be making those decisions, yeah, to make sure when you're choosing a partner, that you've got somebody who's understanding, because you know they are going to need to be understanding to know what life has in store, that you know these are all the things that you're going to go through, yeah, and if you know, you can prepare, you can plan. It doesn't come as a shock. You know what to expect. You know, wouldn't it be brilliant if you you've got a loose plan, you sort of know what's happening. You can adapt it, you can bring it forward, or you can put it back. But the plan's in place, and it just takes all the pressure away. So for mums with children, I think you know your friend who is encouraging her son to engage with her cycle and know when she's going to need to sleep more and might be a bit more cranky, is fantastic, because he'll take that through life with him and for us, mums with daughters, I think it's our responsibility to ensure that our girls know what to expect, not see it as a negative plan for it, with our careers, with our marriage, with our children, and Make sure we our journey is as easy as it possibly can be. Yeah, no, I fully agree. And I think there's that. There is really that point about some people will want children. Some people will not want children. Some people can't have children. Won't be able to have children, but it's actually been in that point of being able to understand your options, and I think we just don't learn enough about that. I mean, I spoke to my mom about her menopause, and she was like, I don't know. Like, she couldn't remember. She didn't know anything. And you know, she's had three children. I've had no children. We will also experience things in completely different ways, I guess. You know, lifestyle, lots of different things. Things. But I think it's that point about, yeah, realizing that actually I was like, I think I'm starting to feel this. When did you go through it, and then it's, it's almost like it's so it's so late, it's like, yeah, you're right. Almost like having that full reproductive plan about, right? If you want children, you should start thinking about it this, because otherwise, you know could be difficult. You might you might, you might be, might, might not be possible for you anymore, because that also, yeah, yeah, I'm living this. I'm loving the thought, the maybe not, the menopause plan, the reproductive plan, thing of life, yeah, I do a little bit, a little bit of planning is good, because I grew up in the 70s and there was no helicopter parenting in my family. But parents didn't really do that in those days, you know, went to school and you did your best, you got a job, and that's how you you lived your life from one thing to the other. There was no real plan. And I suppose, if you've got a career that you you know you want to be a doctor and or you know, you know you're going to be a physicist, or whatever it might be, and you've got a certain journey you're going to follow, then that's absolutely brilliant. But for many of us, we just sort of go from one thing to the next, and we might end up in a career that we love, but at a time in our lives when it doesn't fit in with having children. Yeah, and I guess the thing with that as well is just as we all know, time just flies by a month, passes six months, 235, years, and yeah, if you know you want these things, then I guess it's things that you you need to start thinking about or know and have conversations earlier that this is what you this is what you will want. Maybe not right now, but you know, want to rather than just living it and and living in the moment, Jill tama, who's plan that I, you know, I want to live till I'm 104 now, I might not live until I'm 104 but the things I do now might help me live until I'm in my 90s, rather than doing nothing and feeling like an old Croc in my 70s. So your approach to everything you do in life will help to enable you to have some level of control over the things that happen, and even if you get thrown a curve ball, it doesn't really matter, because you're in a far better place to formulate a plan to deal with that than you would be if you had no idea which direction you were going In. Yeah, that's amazing. Lee, thank you so much for that. I think that's really just a huge eye opener, and hopefully also for the listeners that they can already start to think about that and think about Yeah, their future planning. So yeah, thank you so much. Really, I feel like I've learned a lot as well myself. Yeah, yeah, there is life beyond the menopause. That's what we all need to be aware of. That's for sure. That's great. And I'm really, really happy that we can establish that and you can share it. So thanks so much for your time. Oh no, Karen, thank you for inviting me onto the podcast. It's been really nice to be able to share my experience, and hopefully there'll be one or two nuggets in there that your listeners can take away and implement 100% I am going to put your details in the link bio as well. So obviously, if anybody wants to get in touch and speak to you about your business and coaching, mentoring business, then they can find your details in the link below. Perfect. That's brilliant. Thanks so much. Karen, no, that's great. Thanks, Lee. Wow. What a great episode to kick start the series. Lee really gave us an insight into her journey and experiences. It's such a super intro to the rest of the series, where I'll be talking with experts on exercise, nutrition, HRT, mental health, kind of logical clothes, skin and makeup, HR and employers and so much more. So. To summarize Lee's key lessons from this episode, I'd say a first big one was the menopause reproductive plan. I love the idea of this, not just for menopause, but reproductive life in general. Knowledge is empowering. It gives you options to create choices for yourself. Do you want children? Plan for this? Equip yourself with knowledge on the menopause. I really thought this was something that would happen when I was in my 50s, but as everything, we will all experience these things very differently. Know the symptoms and listen to your body communication. Speak to the close people in your life, partner, friends, family, anywhere, colleagues, tell them how you feel. What are you experiencing? Let them know so you don't feel alone. And they can support you. Track your cycle. For me, this was a game changer. Over the course of six to nine months, I, on a monthly basis, was marking down when I started my period, where my cycle began, when it ended, and all of the things that I was starting to feel, I could see how my behavior, my cycle in general, my skin tiredness peaks and troughs, and when I could recognize those patterns, it gave me the control to make choices. Most of all, remember that this is a completely natural process you're going through. Be kind and gentle with yourself, and remember you are not alone. You