Turns out we were always hot

There's something really interesting about getting older as a woman.

I think most of us spend our 20s worrying about things that, with hindsight, didn't matter at all....

Our bodies.
What people think.
Whether we're getting it right.
Whether we're too much.
Not enough.
Too loud.
Too needy.
Too independent.
Too emotional.

Then somewhere along the way we hit our 40s and think:

Jesus Christ. What was I worrying about?

This week's conversation with Jen went in all sorts of directions. Boundaries. People pleasing. Confidence. Saying no. The fear of disappointing people. The stories we tell ourselves about what will happen if we stop making everyone else comfortable.

And one thing kept coming up again and again.

How often women abandon themselves without even realising they're doing it.

I loved this conversation. It's honest, funny, thoughtful and one of those chats where you find yourself nodding along thinking...

oh thank god, it's not just me.

enjoy.

Here is the RAIN practice recording. https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-g6t5e-11c8f85

Jen Maxwell is a feminine leadership guide, fire walking facilitator, tantra teacher, and creator of the RISE™ Framework. She supports women through powerful rites of passage and life transitions such as burnout, identity shifts, and menopause, helping them reconnect with their bodies, truth, and inner authority. 

Her work is rooted in embodiment, sovereignty, and feminine awakening, guiding women to release conditioning and return to who they truly are beneath expectation and survival patterns.

At the heart of her work is the RISE™ Framework, which supports women to Reconnect with the body, rediscover Intuition, reclaim Sovereignty, and fully Embody their authentic self. Through this, she creates spaces for deep transformation, sisterhood, and remembrance. Jen is passionate about women’s empowerment and believes that when women rise into their truth and aliveness, it creates a ripple effect of change in their lives, relationships, and the wider world.

She offers 1:1 RISE mentorships, fire walking & empowerment experiences and transformational retreats. 

Here is a link to the RISE framework https://jenmaxwell.com/the-rising/if you can embed it or add to the bottom.

Here is my main website https://jenmaxwell.com/

https://www.facebook.com/jenmaxwellrising 

Https://www.instagram.com/jen_maxwell_rising

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to Finding Foundations the Pop. This is a space for honest conversations about the moments that shape us, those turning points, that messy middle, and everything in between. In each episode, I sit down with somebody to explore what they've learned along their way, how they've held on to it when things felt really difficult, and what's changed because of it. No perfect answers, just real stories. I'm Karen Tom and this is Finding Foundation. So exciting. I am speaking to Jen Maxwell this week. She is a feminine leadership guide, firewalking facilitator, tantra teacher and creator of the Rise Framework. She supports women through powerful rites of passage and life transitions such as burnout, identity shifts, and menopause, helping them reconnect with their bodies, truth, and inner authority. Her work is rooted in embodiment, serenity and feminine awakening, guiding women to release conditioning and return to who they truly are, beneath expectation and survival patterns. At the heart of her work is the Rise Framework, which supports women to reconnect with the body, rediscover intuition, reclaim serenity, and fully embody their authentic self. Through this, she creates spaces for deep transformation, sisterhood, and remembrance. Jen is passionate about women's empowerment and believes that when women rise into their truth and aliveness, it creates a ripple effective change in their lives, relationships and the wider world. She offers one-to-one rise mentorships, firewalking and empowerment experiences and transformational retreats. Let's get into it. Ooh, Jen, thank you so much for joining us today on Finding Foundations. You're very welcome. It's lovely to be here. Yeah, it's really nice to see you and maybe hear some of your journeys over the last couple of months. I know you've been busy. Shall we dive in?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

So, Jen, when you think about where you are, where you are now, what's the one truth that you've come to know on your journey? And is there any word, metaphor that that sums that up?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

So I think the one truth is that we already have what it is that we need. We already have what it is we desire. And a lot of us are seeking on this in this lifetime. We're seeking, seeking, seeking for answers and and new um skills and new techniques. And actually, what we find is when we really dig down deep, when we come back to it, it's already within us. So I guess if there was one word that consolidated all of that, it would be that in all of this, we're remembering. We're remembering who we were before everybody else told us how to be.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Oh my god, I love that. It's almost like a slowing down as well, isn't it? Like really giving yourself that chance to to reconnect. How did you how did you land on that?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

So this last how many years has been a bit of a journey. I mean, life's a whole journey, isn't it? But I think particularly in the last few years, I have really noticed where I've been suppressed or uh conditioned or restricted by others, and it's frustrated the hell out of me. And I think heading into perimenopause, I'm perimenopausal now, um, I really noticed where I was changing. I noticed that where I would have been people pleasing in the past, suddenly I had a voice, and where I would have been um sorting out everybody else's needs before my own, suddenly I was able to be a little bit more selfful and do things for myself. And on this journey, I really realized how I had been squashed into systems, I had been made to uh fall into societal expectations and not only in the way that I behaved, but almost in the way that I was thinking and the way that I was also parenting and all of these things. So it prompted me to take a really good look at who I was, uh, who I wanted to be, and and uh to really step into self-sovereignty rather than being uh told what to do all the time, which I think I have a little bit of a rebellious streak in me.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah, I love that. And I guess that's um like you were saying, where things kept h things were happening and you kept feeling really frustrated. I think that's always a good point, isn't it? To really slow down and lean into that. It's like, what is that? What is that trying to tell you that there's a message and there's a there's something in there for you, and normally we just kind of brush it off and think, oh god fuck's sake, blah blah blah. And then actually, when we really lean into it, there's so much goodness there for us, isn't there? To learn.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Absolutely. And one of the key things I think that I've learned is to really listen to my body, so to listen to my nervous system, to notice when I'm getting dysregulated, to know how to come back to regulation. Um, and also noticing when I'm feeling things in my body. So, where do I feel anxiety? You know, where do I feel pressure? Where do I feel? I know I feel like, for example, I know I really feel responsibility and I feel that really strongly in my shoulder. Often get a pain in my shoulder. So our body really knows the score, and I've learned to really come back to myself, to reconnect with myself, to and to trust myself, to trust my body, to trust my intuition and to trust what's already within me.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

I I don't know why, but my right ankle is where I seem to store a lot of grief. And anything that comes up, any if I kind of body scan or whatever, I'm like, oh yep, there you are. And it always like it's like a magnet, like a heat seeker, and I'm like, why? Why in the ankle? But I feel like it's something about that's also about momentum and movement, right? So like when you're walking, like it gives you action, and actually sometimes it can hold you back, it stops you, it slows you down. I also love your your part about society and being squashed into being squashed into boxes that we um that we don't need to be in. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, so I followed the expected, well, not quite, but I've sort of followed the expected path that one takes when you know you're a teenager. So I went to university. I did go to a slightly diverse university. I went and did an outdoor studies degree, which is a bit different, and spent three years getting very drunk and climbing lots. But apart from that, it was a great, it's a great few years. Um, I followed expectations. So I ended up working for the public service and the civil service, I was in the army, and I was very much squashed into those systems. Now, to be fair, I loved it, you know, I loved the army, absolutely loved it. Um, and and I and I was okay with the systems that were struck the structures around the other work that I did. But what I realized was that after many years of that, it really wore me down and it stopped me being who I was. And so in 2019, I started my own part-time business, and then in 2022 I went full-time doing that myself. And what I realized was when I had my last day at work, I kind of had a bit of a meltdown because I realized how much pressure I'd been under from squashing myself in this box and behaving how I ought to behave. And it was an absolute revelation. It was like my my wings had been unfolding and I could finally fly. I could finally, you know, spread my wings and start flapping them. Um, and really beginning to undercover who I was because what I realized was whilst I was in those systems, I'd forgotten who I was because I'd been so entrenched in them. And and I think anybody that's a parent as well, often you get really stuck into the mummy, the mummy phase of life, which is beautiful and wonderful, but you kind of forget who you are. So it was almost like I had a rediscovering of who the fuck am I? And also who do I want to be?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. I kind of see that point as like breaking out of the box, and it's like, oh my god, I actually do have shoulders, I have arms, I've got legs, I can I can move that. But I guess as well as that point, isn't there about critical thinking? And when you're, I guess also like the army, it's very much like you that you don't have to necessarily maybe think so much, it's more about top-down, this is what you will do. And I guess when you're in a when you're in a job in any kind of situation like that, you I don't want to say lemming, but almost like you become that lem, it's like a herd mentality, isn't it? Like you just go uh go along because that's what you do.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Absolutely. And in the army, you're trained to to obey orders because that's the way the army functions, otherwise it wouldn't work.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, absolutely. But I like to think of these things as they're they're stepping stones to taking us to where we are meant to be ultimately, and it's like you need those experiences to get you where you're going. And I think just going back to what you said at the beginning about that remembering as your as your kind of word, it's like actually remembering that our soul chose this body, our soul chose this life, and our soul chose to experience what's going on here. And I think we sometimes forget that, and it's remembering to keep coming back to that point of like, what was it that our soul was coming to do? And I guess remembering plays that part into it, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yeah, absolutely, and I think we all have so many different transitions through life and so many different points of healing. So it might be, for example, I know that a lot of my learning has been to um to really shift my mentality from being small to being visible to being bright and not being squashed or or um afraid to show who I am. And I know that I've also had, you know, lots of oh god, so many learnings. I couldn't even begin to describe them all, but you know, life's such a journey, and it's so interesting how we have often have these really difficult things to overcome, which then uh almost um like give us momentum to move into the next thing. And it can be a phase of healing, it can be a phase of learning. But I know that if I look back over my life and all the different stages that it's taken, I've learned and grown from each and every one of them, even when those times are really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that's it. That pain is never supposed to be, no emotion is supposed to be permanent, it's a cycle, it's a sta. And when you allow and you yeah, when you allow and you kind of immerse yourself, you can move on and you move, you move through it. And that's the the rebirth almost, isn't it? It's like that's the growth and that's where the juiciness is. Like it might not feel like it at the time, but ultimately you always move forwards from periods of pain, like that growth, that learning.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

I love that word juicy. I think juiciness really describes it because once we once we've experienced something that's that's really difficult, um, and and actually we can turn towards it and be with it, and just be with that difficulty, what we find is that there is beauty in the difficulty and there's beauty in the joy as well. So it's almost having that perspective of that, having the understanding that there's a full perspective of of spectrums in our life and we're always going to pendulate between them. And actually, can we take delight in being present in all of them and from one really appreciate the other?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yeah, absolutely. And also really embracing, which sounds hard and possibly ridiculous to say, but embracing those difficult times because when we allow emotion to process, that's all it's looking for, right? It's just looking for emotion, feeling, action in motion. It will process and move on if we if we allow it. And yeah, I think sometimes there's that fear, isn't there, of pain and like what we can hold and what we can bear.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah. And one of the things I've learned in this last few years in particular is how to allow that emotion to move through me. You know, whether that's through movement, whether that's through dancing, maybe it's through whacking a pillow or screaming into a pillow. But one of the things that I know in my past that I've suppressed is like I'm not allowed to feel angry, I'm not allowed to show emotion. And that's I think that's a really big thing for women when we're younger. You know, we're told we don't make a fuss, just be quiet.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah, yeah, just be good.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Exactly. And so I've had fucking years of that sort of all suppressed in me, and I've had so much joy in the last I don't know how many years, but learning how to release that through breath work, through tantric practices, through just dancing in the morning, through shaking my body.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

And what's been your favorite?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Um, I really love using uh movement and dance to and music to shift my energy because I think it can be it can work in so many different ways. You can really um uh awaken yourself and shake it out with a really rocking song. Or actually, if you need to soothe yourself, you can actually take that moment to self-soothe with that as well. So I think that's really powerful. I think one of the biggest ones that I have loved so much is um is to actually lie down on the floor and have a tantrum. So you know, when you're like you see a little person in the supermarket and they're there and they're lying down and they're hammering their fists and their feet, give yourself permission to do that and it really helps the energy to move through you. So if you're feeling angry or cross or frustrated or anything like that, just have a lie down, have a good yell and a good kick, and it makes you feel so much better.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah, it's making you think of what was there was an advert, wasn't there, years ago where the the little toddler was having a tantrum and then she did the mother, uh she just got on the floor and she started having a tantrum, and the kid's like, what the fuck are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 14:25

I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, it is, isn't it? It's like I think there's there's also when you scream or when you have such energetic uh kind of outwards motion, there's the soothingness like when you connect to your vagus nerve and things like this, like it just I think the first time I did that, I I was shocked by the noise that came out of me because it'd been so long back to being a seven-year-old girl in the playground, like just screaming with delight, that it was just like, oh my god, you just don't do these things anymore, do you? But it's so empowering to do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Absolutely, and it's giving yourself permission to do it. It's not something that even occurred to me until a few years ago that as an adult I had permission to do. And who was the one who was giving me permission? Myself.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yes, you know, it goes back to that point of severity that you were saying. It's like standing firm in the standing in your life, not in control, but is standing in that sovereign of who you are.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where that reconnection comes in. It's a reconnecting to who who am I? Who is this person who or who who was this person before she was molded by all of these different systems and and people? And actually, what's her true essence and and how does she want to show up in the world? And so, from that space, from that reconnection, you can then step into that that sovereignty, that self-sovereignty of going, no, this is how I am, this is who I am, and I'm not changing for anybody else. I think that's one of the key things that I've really valued in that.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yeah, I love that. I call it the filing cabinet of shit, and it's like how over our life, it just keeps storing all of these files, and we don't remember most of them. And yeah, it comes to it and it'll and it just pulls out something that's not even conscious to us anymore. But it's from decades then, like right back to even before birth, remembering I don't, but cellularly I remember. And it doesn't tell us it's like who we are today, and that's that's what it's about, right? Claiming, reclaiming who you are today, not six months, one, five, ten, fifteen years ago. Where are you right now? And what are those things that matter to you?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Absolutely, and trusting that you're exactly where you're meant to be, and also that there's nothing wrong. You know, often we can give ourselves so much judgment, we don't need fixing. We're a perfectly, beautifully messy human being with a full spectrum of emotions. Yeah, and you know, that's part of the beauty of human life.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point as well, Jen, because I think where the where the wellness industry somehow as a total has got to, it's really around like just that constant fixing that there's a next hack, there's another framework, there's another thing to do, and there's something more, and it just keeps you constantly on the hook, searching, searching, searching. And actually, as you said at the beginning, it's about that remembering, coming back to yourself and connecting because all of our wisdom is within us already. We know it, it's already here. And if you hadn't learned that, that remembering, that sovereignty, where do you think you'd still be?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

I'd probably be scaling the ladder of the civil service and the army and um probably still being squashed in those boxes, not being my true self or or who I have the potential to be. And that's not to say that the jobs I was doing weren't important. You know, I was I was doing some really good roles and I was good at my job, but I knew that I had more to offer to the world than fitting into a box.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Thinking about remembering and sovereignty, how do you how do you live that every day? And what do you do when things feel impossible?

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Good question. And I think um anybody who is perimenopausal will recognize that some days are great and some days are really difficult. So um I think my my tools about about that and self-sovereignty is I have a morning practice where I just I sit down and I connect with myself and I just ask myself, how am I today? And whatever's there, I'm just present with it. So maybe I'm feeling, oh fuck, I'm really tired, or maybe I've woken up full of beans, or maybe actually I'm a bit depressed this morning, or maybe I woke up and I feel really glad that I'm alive. You know, there's a there's a real range of feelings we can experience for me anyway. It's different every day, and so it's just sitting with that and allowing it to be there, knowing that there's nothing wrong. And then um, I don't know if there is something that I feel like I need to sit with a little bit longer. There's a lovely practice called the rain practice. I don't know if you've ever come across that. It's a Tara Brac practice, uh, mindfulness practice. I used to teach mindfulness for many years, and it's about allowing yourself to be with your emotions. So you recognize, you allow them to come in, you give them some intimate attention, and then you recognize that they're not gonna be there forever. They're not gonna be there. Like you said before, they're in transition, they're maybe just here for a little while and they're gonna move on at some point. So even just sitting with them, allowing them to be there can can either magnify the joy in them, or it can allow the difficult feelings to go, okay, I'm just gonna be with you, nothing wrong. And and they feel less intense.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah. I love that. I'm gonna look that up, right? And who was that with? Tara?

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Tara Bracht. She's a um, yeah. Uh so um yeah, it it comes uh really beautifully together with a a poem called Rumi. Sorry, a poem by Rumi called The Guest House. I don't know if anybody's come across that. That's a beautiful one, which is where uh we recognise that all of these emotions are a are just guests in our guest house and they're gonna move on at some point.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

I will search that and put it in the notes if anybody is interested in.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

I have a I actually have a recording of it that I've done. So you're very welcome to put that in there.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, perfect, sure. And I can um add it to the Yeah, there is that real sort of point about things being transitional, nothing is permanent. And when allowing, when being, that things can just keep, can't things can just move forwards and transition to where they need to go, where it needs to be. And sometimes it's just a message, right? Something to, hey, this is going on, maybe pay some attention here, nothing to worry about, have have a little thought.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, for sure, for sure. But how do I how do I step into that self-sovereignty side of things too? So, one of the things there is to really check in with what do I want and what is what feels right for me. So I know in the past I've had some very strong people-pleasing tendencies, which what now I now understand is come from ADHD. So I'm just going through an ADHD diagnosis at the moment, which is often linked to peromenopause as well and the shift in hormones. But what I um what I do is I really check in with am I doing something for me? Is this is this for me? Is it for somebody else? Am I doing this because I feel I ought to be doing it, or am I doing it because I want to be doing it? And that makes a big difference. And am I doing it because I have responsibility? You know, I have children, I have to go to work, I have to, you know, all of these things. But one of the things I do is I check in with myself in terms of that self sovereignty to find out if I'm if I'm standing in alignment with myself, and that's that's been a really powerful practice for me over the last few years.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

And within that as well, there's a slowing down, isn't there, to allow whatever it is to come through and not giving yourself that pause. So instead of reacting and charging. Ahead, as you know, as you know, you maybe would have done. It's like, okay, what is it that I want to do? How do I want to respond? How do I want to show up? It gives you the option to choose which way you're going. Like, am I going here or am I going there? What is it that I want out of this?

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Yeah, absolutely. One of the key uh learnings that I've had or teachings uh around that has been through Betty Martin's Wheel of Consent. I don't know if you've come across that before. Yeah, so this is one of the um tools that I learned first of all when I began to explore tantra because it's really important to explore consent and boundaries. And so this is understanding whether something is for you or if it's of somebody else. Are you giving or are you receiving? And is somebody taking from you or are they giving back to you? So it's around it's on this we this uh wheel uh spectrum, and and that was so powerful, you know, just to really check in who's this for? Is this for me? Am I doing it for me? Am I doing it for somebody else? And that helps us to again really reconnect with that self-sovereignty.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah, I feel like I'm just saying, I love that, but yeah, I do love that, and it really can quite quickly bring to your senses that that point of what what not what am I getting from this, but somehow what am I getting from this? Is it uh is it transactional or is there a depth to it? The what's the polarity? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Great. And what was the what was the hardest point of putting those practices into place and finding that consistency? Does that matter?

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Hmm. I think overcoming the tendency to people please, recognizing when I was doing it, and then being strong enough to not do it, to recognize it and go, okay, I'm gonna have to be really brave here for me and say, no, I'm not doing that. And I've had to learn to say no, which again is something that was always really difficult for me. I was always a yes person, and if I couldn't do it right then, it'd be like I can't do it right now, but I'm gonna find a way. So, what this has helped me do is actually learn, learn to use my no, learn that no is a full sentence, I don't have to justify my no, and to actually almost enjoy saying no, because when you say no to somebody, you're saying yes to yourself. And when you're saying no to somebody else, they know your boundaries, and that's a really important thing. Yeah, to be to be really clear about what you do and don't want. And likewise, when somebody gives you a no, we can often be terrified that somebody's gonna say no to us, so often we don't ask because because we're frightened, we'll get a no.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Well, actually, that's a gift too, because then you know their boundary, yeah, absolutely, and in that way that it's always internal that when we say no and you see other people's reactions and you're like, I don't know, they're actually okay with that. You think, why was I so why was I so concerned? And other people say no. Um, and it is just about finding that point in your boundaries. Obviously, as you said then, that was it was quite hard at the beginning. Um, what do you think? What did it look like before it started to become more of a natural pattern for you?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Hmm, probably a bit of hesitancy. So I would find that I would need to take that pause rather than if it was an email, I'd sit on it for a little while and go, okay, I'm gonna breathe into this. I can say no. And again, if it was a text message. Sometimes I would say to somebody, I need some time to think about that. So to give it a bit of to give myself a bit of time. But actually now I'm so much more aligned with going, no, that's not right for me. No, that's not right. No, I'm not going to bend the way that I do things for um to to suit you.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah. And that's great, that's a great in-between, then, isn't it? If um, if somebody isn't used to saying no and it's something that's that's new, is is that in between? Um, can I get back to you on that? Let me think about that. And it gives you that way out that you don't have to say it in the minute, but you're not also saying yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Or what do you think? What is it that people don't see about that inner sort of turmoil of when you first start out on this path that yeah might help other people who are starting on their own journey of no?

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, I would say that recognise that it can be a really difficult thing for us to all say, but the person on the receiving end isn't a monster, you know. What the big scary monster isn't gonna come and get you just because you say no. And um also people respect a no. They really do. So, for example, somebody, you know, I do firewalking. So somebody asked me if I would do a um a charity firewalk, but well, it wasn't quite a charity firewalk, but it was a it was a fire, it was a firewalk at a festival, and it would have been a very short one. And so I don't do firewalking that way. My firewalkings are deep and ceremonial, and and I said, No, I'm not gonna do that. It might have paid me lots of money, but I was like, no, because that's not within my that's not the way I do things. I would be out of integrity if I did that. And she came back to me and she said, Thank you, I really appreciate that, your honesty, and and thank you for thank you for your no. And I was like, There we go, okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Thank you for accepting my no. But again, it keeps coming back, doesn't it? To that putting yourself in sovereignty. All of these no is a boundary, boundary is standing in that sovereignty of yourself and giving yourself the power to earn your earn your life that I am the driver in this, I'm the driver in this destination on this journey. I'm not a passenger, and I will choose the the direction that I wish to go in.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Yeah, yeah. And this is the point about self-sovereignty. You get to choose.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

And you can take into consideration other people, like children, dependents, pets, all of that. But at the end of the day, like you say, you're the driver.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

I think that's choice was probably my biggest learning um at the beginning of my journey, and that thinking about, oh, I actually do have choices where I've thought, you know, oh, you just do, you just do. And I guess it's like you were saying with the box or being in the boxes, you just do things because you think it's expected. And when you realize that actually it's like being, it's almost like age reversing, going back to being a toddler and being like, why? Why do I need to do this? Why, why, why, why? And just challenging everything again with that sense of curiosity and innocence that why why do we always have to do this? Why does that have to be?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yes, I love that. I love that. Having the having the um curiosity to go, why are we doing this? Is it just because we've always done it? Or is it because it's there for a reason?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Um, how do you think that that's helped you through the journey that you've been on and like you were saying, especially over the last couple of years?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

I think it's helped me be a lot stronger. So all of these things coming together has helped me really be able to hone into who I am and and also where I want to go because we're always developing, we're always um growing and learning. And we talked before about we've got our resources within us. We've we're we are we're already a beautiful and whole human being, but it doesn't mean we can't learn new things. It doesn't mean we need to be fixed, it doesn't mean we mean we have to do anything to grow, but I think it's really important as a human being to be curious and to learn new things that can help us to step into where we want to be. So really the the embodiment that I've learned and listening to my body, listening to my nervous system in particular, has been very helpful. And actually, one of the key things is um I've always been one of these people that likes to push their edges. So, you know, you tell me to go run a 10k race, I'll go run a marathon or an ultramarathon. You know, um you tell me to, I did a vision quest last year where I could have fasted for four days, I decided to fast for six because that's like I like to push my edges a little bit more. And so um one of the things that I've really learned to to explore is the edges of of of my comfort zone. Yeah, the edges of where am I willing to go to, and how I'll go so far and then I'll come back to safety. It's called pendulation where you um you might um go to the edge of where your comfort zone is, you can feel your nervous system getting activated, and you get to the point where you know if you go a step further, it's too much, so then you come back. So I think what I've done over the last few years is try these things, and then if they're too much, I come back to my place of safety. But I'm always one for adventure, I'm always one for exploring new places and doing new things, and so and and I'm quite a brave person, I think. And so um, with a whole bucket of curiosity as well, I've used those um processes of of uh activation, of of regulation and of exploring those edges to make life fulfilling, make life exciting, to push, to step out of those boundaries and those expectations that that other people have put on me, and also perhaps I even put on myself.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah, absolutely. I think we we do, don't we? I think there's really something powerful in what you were saying there about the being in the comfort zone and out of it. I think sometimes there's a misconception that actually pushing yourself doesn't mean that you have to push and go right out of your comfort zone because that can also be really detrimental. But finding those edges that pushes you, but it doesn't overwhelm you and it doesn't, you know, trauma or whatever it is, but it doesn't push you so far out. A bit of nervy, a bit jingly. Oh, what's gonna happen here?

SPEAKER_00 32:13

But it doesn't have to be that extra, extra level, no, not at all. And and it's important not to necessarily put yourself in those spaces where you are gonna become very dysregulated or it might be massively overwhelming, because actually our we don't necessarily learn from it, or what we do learn from it is it's scary and we don't want to go there again. But if we can push the um the edges of our physical limitations, for example, oh, I'm gonna see if I can run an extra couple of miles today or lift a couple of extra kilos of weights or whatever, you know, then then we can begin to to move towards it and then come back and then move towards it. It's the same with our emotions. Can I allow myself to sit with my sadness, my grief, all of that? Whereas otherwise I might push them away. Can I just, you know, today I'm gonna be with them for five minutes and then tomorrow I'm gonna be with them for 10 minutes, and then actually it becomes easier and easier to just be with them.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah, it's it's also it's like that muscle memory as well, isn't it? Of like trying something, coming back, trying something, coming back, because otherwise, yeah, it goes into the filing cabinet of shit, right? And then when that comes back up again, it's like holy fuck, I am not doing that again. That is not where I am, because look what happened last time. But actually, we we went too far too, we went too far too fast and it burns us out.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Exactly, exactly. And I think one of the one of the key teachings that I've learned, um, which I actually learned when I was learning mindfulness a long, long time ago, is the sutra of the two arrows, which is a a Buddhist principle where you might have heard of this before, where we're all struck by the arrow of suffering. We can't avoid that because it's human life. Maybe it's um we physically hurt ourselves or we we get divorced or we move, you know, have to um move out of our home or whatever that might be. And we can't avoid that. But a second arrow comes in and it strikes us in exactly the same place and where it's already inflamed and sore, and that's that the arrow of avoidance. And so that's that part of us that goes, I'm not gonna feel this. I'm gonna go and binge watch Netflix, I'm gonna do internet shopping, I'm gonna, for me, it's like I'm gonna go run run lots and lots of miles and just completely zone out. Um, but what happens is that actually 90% of our suffering comes from this avoidance, and only 10% of our suffering comes from that original arrow. So if we can lean into that suffering to begin with and work with it, then actually we begin to process it and work with it, and we we save ourselves 90% of suffering. It's also another arrow which pops in, and that's the arrow of shame, and that's the arrow that tells us we shouldn't be feeling like that, and a lot of people experience that too. I know I have.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, I mean, for sure it's it's a constant just hitting, right? But and I guess it goes back to that point of being that emotion, where whatever it is, it is just looking to move forward and pass and keep going. But when we suppress it, we push it down, we ignore it, we yes, it's shameful, we feel guilty, or any of those what you say, shadow emotions, whatever, that it's just there, it's just information, it's just something to learn and move on from, which can sound easy to say, easier said than done, but it is it is temporary, it's not permanent states, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Absolutely. And the first thing to do is turn towards it rather than away from it.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah, yeah, lean into it. So how does it um how does it feel today to see and know how your how your life has changed?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

If I were to go back 15 years maybe and look at myself, I would not I wouldn't think I'd believe it. I'd be like, what really? You know, at that time I was I was entrenched in my in my um my I'm gonna inverted commas proper jobs then and um and stuck in the systems and and kind of thriving in the systems as well at that point, but I I don't think I would recognise myself. And and one of the beautiful things about really coming back to yourself and who you are and letting go of all those expectations that everybody has put upon you is that you can begin to grow back into yourself if that makes sense. So now I'm 46 now and I feel more sexy, more desirable, more confident in my body than I did when I was 20, you know. And and I also give I don't give a fuck, which is so liberating, isn't it? I think the older we get, I don't care what people think of me, you know. I'm and also the um one of the things I've really learned is how to charge my Eros, my life force energy, my sensuality, and in doing so find pleasure in all areas of life, you know, yeah being out in nature, hanging out with friends, being with myself, reading a book, watching a film, and just noticing all those delicious moments that we might miss sometimes, otherwise miss or not appreciate. So there's a whole load of gratitude in there too.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Also, with that, we kind of forget the things that bring us pleasure, we forget the things that bring us joy, and we think it's sometimes like all of these big moments and big experiences and stuff, but it can actually just be really, really simple, like sitting in enjoying something, something to eat, something to drink, something in the nature, or uh drawing, creative, whatever it is. There's just it's really simple, simple pleasures, isn't it? It's not doesn't have to always be like those absolute highs.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

No, not at all. In fact, I did an Instagram post about it yesterday, which is about glimmers. It's about when life throws you curveballs, um, find the glimmers. So I, when I was in India, I ran into a rock and it broke my big toe. And I was supposed to do an ultramarathon in next month, and as such, it's not healing fast enough, so I can't do it. So I was feeling a bit upset about that. And then I was like, why am I upset? Look at all the glimmers here. I was up, I was actually managing to walk up a mountain, you know, just a little one. Um, and the sun was just setting, and I was catching the last of the rays, and it was beautiful. And you know, I'd seen my children laugh and smile that day and giggle, and oh, you know, when kids have that like uncontrollable giggle and it just it washes over you as well. And so many things to be grateful for. And those are the glimmers, and and you might just find one a day, or you might find that actually the next day you can find two, and the next day you can find three, and the next day four, five, or six, and then what you notice is that your whole energy begins to change. And if we won't think about the law of attraction, what we give out, we get back. So the more little glimmers we find, the more glimmers we're gonna find. Well, sorry, that we find, the more are gonna come our way.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that having that practice of gratitude as well is so important to do that, isn't it? It's like looking for what are the things that you are grateful for today, what are the things that you know you're breathing, you're alive, you you know, live to live in a warm house, you go to work, you have different, different things. There's gratitude in all of that, and like you say, it changes that energy structure that what you give, you receive.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Absolutely, yeah. Shifts your whole energetic vibration.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Yeah. I think what you were saying earlier, I love that in that going out there and sort of re finding yourself. It's like you're you're feral, and it's like you've welded and you've come back, and it's like I'm rewilding again. There's something really animalistic somehow in that as well, that we rediscover who we are and who we are truly here to be.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Yeah, for sure. There's a yeah, it's primal, it's it's like we're undomesticating ourselves, it's like we're exploring and discovering all these emotions that we that we've been suppressing and and are able to then express them in terms of rage or frustration or all of that, and and of love, being able to express love and have that full spectrum of emotions, which is which is so important. And often we are encouraged not to express.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Yeah. And also to receive, like that receiving in that way that it's not just about, especially as you were saying, like with people pleasing and things like that. You're so used to giving. Receiving feels alien, it feels like, oh God, no, I don't have that. Oh no, I I give, give, give. And it's learning to receive and yeah, having that that people also want to give.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Yeah, and if you think about it, how much joy and delight do you get from giving? And when the other person receives it, you really get a buzz from it. So when you're receiving from other people or you're receiving from the universe, you're bringing them joy too. So it's a reciprocity.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess also it goes back to the duality of everything, you know, giving and receiving, they come as a cycle, you know, like laughter, sadness, all of these things as a duality that no one thing is supposed to be a dominant force, whether it was masculine, feminine. I guess that's the whole point of tantra, also, isn't it? It's like this do uh merging of energies. This really life is not about one dominance, it's about finding that blend. And I don't really want to say balance because balance feels so linear. Whereas things are not like that, are they?

SPEAKER_00 41:28

It moves and it changes, and no, and there's always swirling and movement and evolution and and pendulating one way and then the other way. But I think it's recognizing that both are there. I mean, part of the work that I do is very much about recognizing we live in a in a very patriarchal system, so there's a lot of masculine energy about. And I live in so many of my younger years in the masculine, in my masculine all the time, especially with the jobs that I did. So coming back to the feminine for especially for some women can be really unfamiliar and it can be a bit scary. But actually, what we need to do is we still need that masculine energy, but we need to we need the the divine feminine to rise as well, to balance to literally to balance it out.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

I mean, not to go into politics, but if you look at the shit show of the world today, I mean, if there was a few more female leaders, I feel like we'd be in a completely different place right now.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Absolutely agree. And how do you um how do you celebrate yourself? What an interesting question. How do I celebrate myself? So I think there's different elements to this, aren't there? There's the things that we can almost give ourselves a little treat for being for for doing well or for uh for a celebration, which might for me my my pleasures are a hot bath, like a scalding hot bath with crystals and candles all around and a really good book or a really long run in the mountains, that can be a good one. Um but how do I celebrate myself? I think I just have joy in my own existence, which I haven't always had. And I think celebrating my own existence, knowing that I've birthed two wonderful beings into this world, and I know I've made a difference to a hell of a lot of women in this world already, and I know that I have the potential to help and change and shift the energy of so many more women. There's so much potential for us in the world to do good. Yeah, I celebrate myself by hey, I'm you know, just even giving myself a hug, having a having a you know, a pat on the arm at the end of the day. Well done, Jen. You did a good job.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

That's it, isn't it? Like it changes on a daily basis, like how you would what you need at that time. Is it physical, is it emotional, like what are the different needs that you that you have? I love what you said about celebrating your existence because I think we don't do that enough. It's really when we we fall in love with ourselves and we fall. And we fall and we fall, and we keep falling into ourselves, and ourselves as at the center of our universe that life starts to change because that relationship with ourselves is the benchmark for all others. And I just don't think we appreciate our existence, even the fact that we are alive, heart beating enough. So that's yeah, I love that. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

I love that. Falling in love with yourself and also falling in love with life as well. Yeah, absolutely. That's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

And what what do you what do you think? Um, Jen from Jen from the army. Uh what do you think she'd say she could see you to do?

SPEAKER_00 44:44

I actually think she'd be really proud. She'd be like, ooh, you've you've done you've done a brave thing there, haven't you? You've stepped outside of that box. Good for you. And and actually, I still see a lot of qualities from from her in me now, in terms of um, I guess self-assurance and having that, there's something about being in the army, it's very easy to hide behind your rank. And so there's an expectation that if you ask somebody to do somebody, or so somebody to do something, rather tell them probably, give them an order that it'll be done. And so um sometimes, just occasionally, I still carry a little bit of that arrogance with me that it'll be done, and I have to kind of check myself. However, at one point I would see that as arrogance and um um perhaps um being, I don't know, not rude, but a little bit direct. And actually, if I'm asking for something for myself, that's something I've learned to do because I I didn't do that before. You know, I I would find it really difficult to say, please can I have this um in case it would inconvenience somebody. So so now not that I make a habit of this, but if ever I went out to a restaurant or had something to eat and it didn't, it wasn't great, I wouldn't say I'd be like, oh, that's a shame, I won't come here again. Now I'm like, excuse me, my meal's not not to my expectation. I want you to change it for me, please. It's just things like that, you know, that I feel now that I have much more confidence to do. And going back to to the the Jen in the army, I think that she would celebrate me for being who I am.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Absolutely. And there's also something, again, it goes back to maybe it's a loose stretch, but like that boundaries and the serenity again, in that actually this is about service, you know, and maybe also being self-employed, you recognize the service that you give in what you do now, the quality of the you know, goods that you deliver.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

There needs to be an energetic exchange, doesn't there? And and the the the whole reason behind my work, and I'm sure it is for yours as well, is that you want to make a difference in the world. You know, you want to be able to help people, to, to help the environment. One of my key things is that I really want women to thrive because I know that when we are thriving, and like you say, when we're in more positions of of political power and and and places like that, um, that we're gonna change the system. And it's so important that we begin to change that system. And I believe that we can. And I believe the more women that learn how to say no, how to stand in their self-sovereignty, and just to not take any shit, that's gonna make the hugest difference in the world. It really is. The Dalai Lama said Western women are gonna change the world, and I I think I believe him.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

So Dalai Lama. Um quickly, as a last question, if you think about um about Jen in the army, at that point, what percentage of the life that you lead now and are living, do you think she could have envisaged?

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Um, I don't know. Probably, I don't know, maybe like a quarter of it, perhaps. I would imagine that she would have thought she would carry on doing exactly what she was doing.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

I think that's a really important distinction, is that we can always do more than we ever think that we can. We don't dream to our fullest point that if you were thinking, you know, like 25% and you've achieved a whole of a 75% on top of that, we can always do more than where we think we can at that point in time.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Absolutely, absolutely. And it and it goes it goes back to um pushing our edges, you know, like I'm gonna see how far can I go, yeah, and be proud of how far I go.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

And keep coming back to it. I think like you said earlier, that knowing that you are in the right place and knowing you're on your own time journey, you're on your own type, and you've got to learn these things, you've got to do it, and you've got to go through the process, but you are on, you are in the right place and the right time.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Absolutely, you're on your own journey. It's fuck all to do with anybody else, so you just crack on.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Yeah, so I love this. We've got remembering, we've got sovereignty, we're breaking out of the box, we are reclaiming our divine feminine, and we're saying no.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yes, yes to all of that.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Thank you. So, so so so much. It's been amazing. So, thanks so much for your time. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me. What a refreshing chat with Jen. Uh, there's so many nuggets to take away here of great things to think about in our own lives, that sovereignty, that remembering. And a lot of it also comes back to boundaries. Saying no, just being where we want to be when we want to be there. I know life gets in the way, it's busy, lots is going on, but it's really taking that time to centre ourselves in it, in our lives, not on the fringes, not on the to-do lists, and sometimes saying no, we get really scared thinking, shit, what's in there gonna say? They'll be so angry, they'll think I'm selfish. And it's such an anticlimax. People just go, uh, okay, and move on. And we're left thinking, what the hell just happened there? I also like to think about it as what are we denying other people? What learning are we denying them by always saying yes? Maybe disappointment is part of their learning too. One of the truest things I definitely got from Jen there was, I feel more sexy, more desirable, more confident in my body now than I did when I was 20. Dear God, if I think back to my 20s and how insecure about my body and self I was, I'm like, what a freaking waste of time. I was so hot and I never appreciated myself. I was too busy trying to be smaller, body, personality, needs, just blend into that corner. For what and for who? Like, bloody, certainly not me. I do love that more women in their 40s are openly now sharing that celebration of themselves, feeling sexier, more confident, hotter, and actually saying it out loud. And ladies in your 20s, live it up now because honestly, you're gonna bloody look back in 20 years and think, Jesus Christ, what on earth was I worrying about? Cliches are super cheese first, I know, but honestly, they become cliches for a reason because it's so true. Well, I hope that you enjoyed Jen's episode as much as I enjoyed chatting to her. Join me next week when I'll be talking to Abigail Nelson about her traumatic experience at the hands of the NHS. Join me then.